Unglamored, a Novel on Mental Health in Entertainment
Host: Eric Chow · Guest: Jessie Cheng · July 12, 2021 · Episode 51 · 49 minutes
Transcribed from the episode audio and edited for names and terms. Speaker labels are assigned automatically and can occasionally place a line with the wrong speaker; the episode itself is the record.
Eric Chow
Well, hello. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Eric Chow Empowers Podcast. I'm so excited you're tuning in. We have an amazing conversation for you here today. Guys, today we live in a world where celebrities and the people under the public eye are put under immense pressure. Today's guest is an author. Unclamored by Jesse Chang is a novel about a famous Asian American singer who struggles secretly with an eating disorder in an industry that demands perfection and glorifies thinness. 19-year-old Rose Beatty is the nation's top star, a famous Chinese American singer who appears to have it all, a large fan base, a glamorous career in Shanghai, the perfect body.
But behind the camera is a girl the public does not recognize, a girl who fights daily with the monsters in her head. Join Rose B.D. as she navigates the pressures of celebrity life, experiencing love, friendship, betrayal, and everything in between. Guys, this is a story about mental health in the entertainment industry with the goal of bringing awareness and creating empathy for the celebrities of today and for all of us to understand yet another way how mental health can influence all our lives. I'm telling you, there is so much to relate to. in this story regardless of your personal background. Unglamored comes out August 2021 and I'll tell you, I've pre-ordered my copy.
So in this episode, I sit down with the author Jesse Chang. We go deeper into the story, into the inspiration behind this story and why Jesse felt the urge to write this book. Enjoy. What is up everybody? Welcome back to the Eric Chow Empowers Podcast. This is episode number 51 and I'm your host Eric Chow and today we are joined by Jesse Chang.
Jessie Cheng
Jesse, welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much for having me Eric.
Eric Chow
I'm excited for this. First, let's have you introduce yourself to the audience and tell them a little bit about you.
Jessie Cheng
Sure, of course. Hello everyone. My name is Jesse Chang and like Eric said, Well, it's such a great honor to be here and I am publishing a book this August and I'm the author of Unglamored and it's a YA novel about Chinese American singer who struggles secretly with an eating disorder.
Eric Chow
And this is a true story. What is this fiction story?
Jessie Cheng
No, so this is a fictional story. I love it. That's brilliant. A lot of its elements though reflect reality.
Eric Chow
I think that's brilliant. I find that, I don't know, I read a lot so I find that books that share a story. Like they just, they, they hit it different for lack of a better way of saying it. So I love that. And so how did you come up? What's the inspiration behind this character?
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, sure. Definitely. I think that, you know, growing up, I've always loved music so much. So I looked up to a lot of female artists and slowly like I started realizing like female artists, a lot of them like up here the same. Not in the sense that they look identical, but they are pressured to have a certain body size, a body shape. And this requires them to go on superhuman diets, diets that oftentimes aren't conducive to health. And then just hearing a lot about suicide with an entertainment industry, the rise in it was so heartbreaking. And it made me question, what is the true reality behind the entertainment industry?
What celebrities pressed? to always be a certain way or look a certain way. So I think that was like kind of the inspiration behind this book. And then the character as well as kind of a culmination of many real celebrities experiences as well as you know my personal experiences.
Eric Chow
Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. I think that sometimes when people are and we've talked about this before you and me when people are put into the spotlight one of the one of the big reasons at least in my view is we almost put these people on a pedestal and hold them to a higher standard than we do the rest of us. Right? And then one, because we feel that these people are different. Like they're like, build different, you know what I mean? And so they're put under so much more pressure and judgment because we feel like they should be so great. And we're just not. Absolutely.
Jessie Cheng
And I think like that's why it's so easy for us to criticize celebrities. Yeah. They do something that like maybe our friends have also done.
Eric Chow
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And especially when the celebrity is somebody who got started young, I just feel like that's really a dangerous thing. And like, I mean, you see so many stories of some of the celebrities who started young. and have had to deal with so many mental health things or eating disorders or whatnot. And even when I see like a new celebrity coming up and they're young and they popped off somewhere somehow, I like to like spend just a moment to look at who are the people they're hanging out with and do they have a good support system because like they just don't have the character or emotional strength to be able to handle the level of criticism that a celebrity gets.
Jessie Cheng
You know, it's really hard like going like entering the public eye at such a young age. Yeah, and actually like my character, like she started her career when she was 12 years old. Nice one. Yeah, she officially entered like the public eye when she was 16 years old, which is still a very, very young age, right? So absolutely like having that support system is so important. And also like the celebrity life, it's hard. And you know, people can be really, really cruel and mean at times. So I think definitely one of my goals with my book on glamored was to also build a sense of connection between us and celebrities and to, you know, provide that space for its self-reflection. Like, are we treating, are we remembering that these celebrities are just human beings like you and I are?
Eric Chow
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what, how are we just have you talk a little bit about the book and the story and the industry in general and just kind of your overall thesis of it?
Jessie Cheng
Sure, yeah. So my main character, her name is Rose B.D. So she's a Chinese American. So she grew up in the States. But then afterwards, after she went viral for a winning a middle school competition, she was invited to enter a training academy in Shanghai, in China. So that's where she basically jumped started her career. So part of my story is also to kind of shine light on how the entertainment industry works. within Asia, but specifically China within my novel. So a lot of entertainment companies are following the model of having young celebrities starting to train at a very young age. And then essentially for those who fit the company mold or fit the certain expectation a company has, they will debut.
and enter the public eye. So Rose B.D. is lucky and also hardworking enough to enter the public eye as a singer. But because of her experiences throughout the training process, she, that's when a lot of her eating disorder behaviors and thoughts started to emerge because there was a very heavy emphasis placed on always looking thin, you know, being light-skinned. All of these you know, standards. So I think like with my book, even though it is a fictional novel, I also do want to, you know, talk about Asian beauty standards and how unrealistic they are. You know, even for me, like I am tan. So when I sometimes when I go back to China, like my relatives, I'll be like, oh, wow, you know, why are you so dark?
You know, or it's just like, oh, what? Like, look at your mom. Your mom has such nice, like. fair skin. So it's just interesting to see how these dynamics and a lot of cultural aspects also can contribute to the development of an eating disorder or poor body image.
Eric Chow
So obviously, one clear message of the book is going to be just bringing awareness to this industry and sure a particular impact. areas of the industry, sure. But I think a second one is, as you're kind of touching on here is how our upbringing and culture impacts us. Because I think that one of the beautiful things about what you're doing is you're taking these people from pedestal and bringing them back down to the human level by sharing the story about it. And in doing that, it shows all of us, hey. This person has these problems because of this. And same with me or I can connect with this.
Maybe if it's not because I don't have this problem, but maybe I have a similar problem. Or maybe I know somebody who has the same problem, right? And I think that's one of the other e-messages.
Jessie Cheng
Thank you. Like that's like one of the beauties of like creative storytelling. You can really connect with different office members, but like, like for example, even though like you and I are so different, like we probably grew up with very different experiences. Like the human experience in general, there's like, there's something common into it that everyone can relate to, right? And I think like, I guess like maybe you and I can both relate to this, but I think. I think for me, like growing up within an Asian family, there's a very heavy emphasis on self-discipline and self-control. So like these ideas of like eating, or sort of just for example, right?
There's this misconception that, you know, they can just be solved if you just if you were just stronger, if you just had more self-discipline, when you don't realize that there are so many like environmental and like temperamental, you know, factors that also can contribute to it. And I think like that's something that's like I'm trying to show that complexity through my characters as well.
Eric Chow
That is beautiful. Yeah, no, that's a very good point. It's a very good point. I mean, I think like I've done a little bit of study in the work and the work of like how habits are developed and particularly in when it comes to eating habits. Right. What we eat has nothing to do with our motivation or our self discipline. It has to do it. What the hell is in your house? and what's easiest for you to grab when you walk into the kitchen. That's why they always say throughout the chips, throughout the cigarettes, throughout the whatever, because if it's there you're going to eat it. My mom just bought a bag of chips and so now I'm eating it.
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, yeah, your environment doesn't affect you a lot, but I also think like one of the things about the whole idea of self-discipline or not, it's like one of the issues is that our society places you know, has created a moral value for food. To send you like, if you eat chips, right? Like you are a bad person. You are undisciplined. You are not treating your body properly. When in reality, like eating a chip is not going to kill you. Eating a chip does not make you a bad person. And I think like a lot of people, you know, do struggle with the human disorders, behaviors and thoughts because, you know, they suffer from.
the society's value on food. So I know like even for me, like I struggled a lot with that, you know, I used to not be able to eat cookies without being myself up for it. But you know, like food is such a beautiful gift, you know, and learning how to be self compassionate and understanding that food does not determine or define our self-worth is also really important and trying to get that message across as well.
Eric Chow
Yeah. What do you feel? is the solutions to all of these kinds of problems that you're creating. Self-awareness and then what kind of change do you think needs to happen?
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, I think that there needs to be like a lot of systemic change and I think you can say that with a lot of different things like going on with the country specifically, right? But, you know, diet culture has become the norm. So, I mean, the diet culture really does, that industry really does profit. off of our insecurities or feelings of wanting to look a certain way. So I think like understanding like that our society promotes thinness or promotes a certain unrealistic ideal, right? Women are expected to have, you know, a large chest, but practically in like a super miniscule, basically invisible waist, larger hips.
right a gap between your thighs small face fair skin and what are men expected to look like right tall you know you have to be muscular at the same time have like basically essentially know that you basically can't do that unless you're eating grilled chicken and broccoli every single day you know so these standards that we're promoting you know they contribute to our sense of like okay i'm just not good enough you know maybe i'm just not attractive so I think being aware of the diet culture and also actively dismantling it is really important. And like many people don't know this, but you know one person every single 52 minutes dies directly from their eating disorder because it affects you a lot physically as well. So definitely like increasing more treatment options and eliminating those financial and social barriers to and in receiving treatment access is really important.
Eric Chow
Yeah. What kind of treatment up is there right now?
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, so therapy is a really important treatment. And, you know, for example, I've been going through therapy for a while as well. And it's so important because like when I talk with my therapist, I'll share her my thoughts about like body image or like what struggles I'm going through. And she'll catch me like, Hey, like, is that really true? You know, is that a true reflection of who you are? Jesse as a person and you realize like no, you know, a lot of it is like the lies that society tells you to believe in and to make it and but you have to like actively work against those lies and then there are also like treatment programs in which like patients will be under the care of someone because like as I mentioned before, UNICEF will really do affect you physically as well and it's important that you know, some people do receive that more extensive care.
Eric Chow
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I want to go back for a second to the dismantling of just all these garbage thoughts that we've been fed because obviously working on clearing out some of our beliefs is a very difficult thing, not just in this kind of circumstance or subject area, but in just in general when it comes to self-image. How have you been? actively dismantling these beliefs.
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, sure. So even with this novel, I think it provides a very different perspective on mental health. And I think it's such an honor to be able to advance the story on mental health as an Asian American woman myself. Because I think like everyone struggle with. disorder eating eating disorder or body image, it varies depending on your personal experiences. So I think like through creative story and through like unglamored, I hope to share a different perspective. But also I have active conversations with my family, with my closest friends about these. And sometimes I admit it's like super frustrating because, you know, not everyone understands what an eating disorder is, you know, even if it is so common.
And I totally understand that, which is why having those simple conversations is really important. Even having conversations with my parents about it, who have no idea what mental health is. That's where the change begins. Working on the external aspects, which is providing more access treatment, supporting organizations that do provide help for people struggling with even disorders, but also on the micro level, we know what you can do.
Eric Chow
Yeah, yeah, I think one of the interesting things that in just in the way the world works in general and with a lot of the systemic problems I feel there's always going to be you know a certain number of people who are really pushing for really hard and working on those systems but the majority of the vast change is just a mindset thing it's just a perspective thing it's just a beliefs thing. It's not even, you know, having to go out and figure out all sorts of things. It's just in the minds of all of us, can we dismantle some of these beliefs? And if we can do that, I mean, that's the rest of it kind of is magic.
And people like you are able to do your work in fixing the systems. as long as that can happen. But without that, nothing happens.
Jessie Cheng
You're really right. You're really hitting a point. Like everything kind of starts in our heads as well, right? Like mental disorders, like they're not permanent, which is the for the most part, right? So it's like active renewal of the minds constantly challenging those lies, challenging those thoughts that society feeds us. It's absolutely really important. Thanks for touching upon that. Yeah.
Eric Chow
Why don't people, what's your thought? Why don't people actively to try to challenge their thoughts? Yeah, I think there could be two reasons.
Jessie Cheng
First of all, there's just like pure ignorance, you know? I think like in high school, when I started developing a lot of unhealthy thoughts and behaviors, I thought they were like the norm. You know, I was like, oh, this is like, this is the proper way to treat my body. This is what everyone else is doing, which is why like, I was like, I definitely don't have an issue. There's nothing wrong with me. It was not until I realized like, okay, my thoughts are not healthy. And I was like, okay, I need to do something about it. You know, I need to be more intentional about what I'm feeding into my mind as well, what I'm consuming.
I think second is, I think the very nature of an eating disorder or any mental health illness is that it's very, very lonely. So sometimes you don't even have like much direction. You don't know like no one comes out of the room knowing how to fight depression or fight anxiety, you know. It's something that you really do need a support system for. So I think even for us like just on the human level, you know, being kind to others because you never know what someone's going through. You really never do. You know, if we if we can use our voice, our timer, I would you to make one person's day better.
Like that's the beauty of human connections. And I think that's something we need to all strive to do a little bit more throughout the day.
Eric Chow
I know I 100% agree. I feel that it's just we don't do it either because we are ignorant of it. Or maybe we're even afraid to do it. Because obviously, like you said, it's lonely work. It's hard work at times. It's scary. to kind of face these things, especially without a support system. I can't even imagine how that must be. But I think that, and I think it's also a big, it feels big. Like it just feels so vast, like how the hell do I sit here and observe all my thoughts and say okay, that one's true, that one's not true. Like this isn't like a throw something over here, throw something over there.
You're gonna be sitting there forever, right? And I feel like it feels like such a big challenge to take all these beliefs. And it's so much easier and almost natural to just forget it. Let's just go with whatever we've got. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. But I mean, it's like, it's like upgrading the computer. Like sometimes the update takes down forever. But the computer works better. And it's the same thing with our minds.
Jessie Cheng
And like even these conversations that we're having, right? Like maybe like, you know, this like, this really conversation right now, this very one, right? Or like me when I published my book later this August, like when people get to read it, it's like having these opportunities for us to explore, you know, our thoughts and our mentalities. Like that's, that's doing some work as well. So what you're going back into like. you know, having a sense of community is so important because sometimes it's other people who will challenge our thoughts the most.
Eric Chow
Oh yeah, no, it happens to me all the time. Shout out to any of my friends who are listening to this. No, I think it's, I think stories and books like the one you're doing, especially because it's fictional. If it was nonfiction, if it was a real story, that would have been still great, right? and the doubt of it's so powerful because it's real and somebody can connect with it. But I think the beauty of a fiction story that is based on reality makes it, I think it expands the audience of who can connect with it, just to say it a little differently. And when it's a fun way of doing it, so much can happen.
Because it's just things start clicking in your mind. It's not like Okay, there's one thing, there's two thing, there's three thing, there's four thing, like a checklist on a book that you have to like, it's like an almost like a textbook even, which is great and it's good to do that kind of work as well. But the impact from the story is so much more powerful because we're storytelling creatures and we everybody loves stories. That's just the nature of humanity. And I think that kind of work is so great. And then of course, the system, the community that you're talking about, being around the people who are going to allow these kinds of conversations or challenge you when you have a thought.
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, definitely. And I think like with the book as well. you know it's not even though she is a singer who struggles with an English sweater that's not everything like there's a there is a plot to the book right yeah elements to the book that i'm really excited for you know readers to you know basically be on this journey with my characters throughout and i think there are a lot of other secondary characters who audience members can definitely relate to a lot uh so i for example just like a sneak peek, even though there is a Rose VD is a Chinese American singer who struggles in the Indian disorder.
I also talk about men who struggle with Indian disorders because it's also very, very common and needs to be normalized more. So I think there will be characters everyone can relate to at the end of the day. Awesome. Yeah.
Eric Chow
By the way, what's also interesting is an interesting moment happening in my head right now is I'm thinking of different people. that somehow I don't know why I didn't think of them before, that I want to basically tell them about the book and the story and basically what you're doing. And somehow it's all coming to my mind now. Somehow I didn't think of it earlier, but I'm just like thinking of that. No, yeah, I think that's a beautiful thing. The fact that it's going to be so relatable. Going to the community of people that you kind of engage with, obviously, there is the people you talk to just so you can help sort of slowly and it's a long process I'm sure kind of dismantle their beliefs and put in a new one.
Who are the people who support you and your journey of dismantling yours and and kind of are on the same page as you other than your therapist? Yeah for sure.
Jessie Cheng
I think my closest closest friends and I think a lot of it is like because we grew up in the same environment they can really And my struggle is a little bit more. And they kind of see like, OK, what could have contributed to a negative thought or a negative behavior? Not only that, I have a really strong church community on campus as well. And it's just an open place for me to be authentic and fully vulnerable, which is great. And even like right now, as I'm doing my pre-ordering campaign, like sharing my story with the world essentially, it wasn't that it'll like you know, scary in the beginning because it requires a lot of vulnerability.
But you know, I think there's nothing to be ashamed of and not only that, like choosing to make that active step of being vulnerable with other people, I think will also encourage other people to mirror that. And that's just what I wanted to at the end of the day.
Eric Chow
Yeah. There's a, I'm trying to remember it, but there's a beautiful poem on exactly that, what you just said. When you share your light. and inspires other people to do the same, to share theirs. Yeah.
Jessie Cheng
And I think it was people who would be vulnerable with me about their struggles that gave me the strength to be, you know, to do the same.
Eric Chow
Absolutely. Absolutely. By the way, when she says church community, she's currently wearing Christ earrings. Just want to point that out for the people listening. Yeah. Before we continue on with this story, what can people do to get the book or support you? Yeah, for sure.
Jessie Cheng
So at the end of August, which is my publishing date, you can purchase a copy for yourself on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
Eric Chow
Beautiful. Yes. Beautiful. So yeah, and so what I'll do then is I will link your social in the episode description. And then whenever you start sharing it late August, hey, my book's available on Amazon, here's the link, then I can share it at that time too. So listeners, just be on the lookout for that in a couple months. Yes. For you to read it. Listeners, I've reordered one, okay? I'm doing it too. I can't wait to get the book. That'll be fun.
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, it's such an honor and such a humbling opportunity for me to share this story with other people. So I'm really excited to know what my readers will think about it.
Eric Chow
What inspired you to kind of going back into this, to write it, write a book and how did you come up with the idea of making this a fiction?
Jessie Cheng
So yeah, it's interesting. In the beginning, I wanted to start a podcast that was talking about eating disorders, but then I talked with my editor coach and he was like, you know, that's a great idea, but I encourage you to write a book first because that will first give you some like credibility and like recognition. Otherwise it's like, it's a random kid talking about eating disorders. And there are a lot of podcasts already about eating disorders. So I was like, okay, I want to write a book because I always loved writing to the kid. And at first, you know, I kind of wanted to write that like textbook novel, you know, this is what an eight in a sweater is within the entertainment industry and like go into like more of a research element.
But even me, I was like, Oh, what? I want to read a book about this. Hopefully not, you know, maybe only if I were doing a research project on it. But then, you know, I was this was like in the middle of quarantine when I started writing last May, I was just like circling my backyard. And then I was like, wait, I can make this a fictional story. And how much more like compelling would that be? How much more interesting would that be? Because like what you were saying with a fictional novel, I think you can connect to readers much more. And there's also this engaging element because like there is a certain plot to it as well.
You know, it teaches more lessons than just, you know, on mental health. It teaches other topics such as like vulnerability, the strength in being vulnerable, self-compassion, what that means, and having like open conversations and also shedding light onto how the entertainment industry works, all within like a creative like fun, yet like really emotionally, you know, connecting and touching story.
Eric Chow
So I'm really excited. Beautiful. And I spend a little bit of time. just I guess maybe because I'm a podcast host thinking about different mediums for different things because just I've been podcasting for well by the time your book comes out it'll be two years. Wow. So I know a thing or two and I spend some time like when other people talk to me about it like different mediums okay should I do podcast should I do writing should I do and Honestly, I think you picked the perfect medium for the story that you're doing. Thank you. Honestly, podcast, YouTube, any sort of video. Anything you could have done, I think a fictional story in a book was the best possible choice because I think that, as you're saying, it's going to be the perfect way to share all the different messages.
It's not just going to be one. little message, right? It's so many different things. Even the person who has literally no eating disorders and everybody in their family is great at it and they have nothing to worry about when it comes to that. They're still gonna be able to find some value in the book because there's so much else to it. Absolutely. Yeah, that's gonna be awesome. You mentioned something earlier about financial and social barriers. when it comes to challenging eating disorder treatment and mental health, certainly in the entertainment industry, but in general too.
Jessie Cheng
So what kind of barriers are there?
Eric Chow
Yeah, for sure. Well, some are social barriers. So like, stare typically, like people have associated eating disorders with like white girls, basically white upward class or high middle class. girls, but it affects a lot of people. And for example, like with the whole model minority myth, a lot of Asians and Asian Americans are unable to receive treatment or be, you know, believed in when they say they have mental health illness because there's this idea that they should be competent. So why should they be struggling with a mental illness? Right? So like there are a lot of social barriers with that. It's like the cultural like stigma, like the mental health stigma that kind of shuts down conversations on mental health makes it much more difficult for individuals to say like, hey, I want treatment, I want support.
And financial barriers, you know, eating sort of community can be extremely, extremely expensive. So it's really hard for people from lower income families. to receive consistent treatment for their eating disorders. But there are a lot of organizations such as Project Heal, which is also a nonprofit that I'm donating a lot of money to with this pre-order campaign. Their goal is to actively fund raise, to be able to provide those resources for people who need access to treatment, but are unable to attain it. Amazing. Yeah. I think you said something really which I loved, which was people sometimes think I should be fine. Like what? I have a problem.
No, what are you talking about? I'm fine. I'm great. And I think that one of the other reasons that this becomes so like we were talking about how sometimes we think these things are we don't think about how certain thoughts or beliefs or lies when this one's the exact opposite. It's certain thoughts and beliefs are true. But. we decide, no, I can't have, that's not true. Of course not, I can't have that. And it's just, it's just that sort of inner refusal almost to believe it because of all these ridiculous pressures that we have. And this is where you, we're even not just putting celebrities on a standard, but ourselves on a standard.
Just because, you know, we're good at one thing doesn't mean we're good at everything. You know, I'm great at certain things, but there are also things that I'm not so great at that I need to work on because they're my problems and they're my weaknesses. And everybody has that. And I think that part of the challenge of this is facing reality. And in that case, especially where it's like, yeah, I do have this problem. And I got to deal with it. Otherwise, it's going to cost me later or it's just going to hold me back. or I think also even attaching it to like our personal happiness, not happiness in the sense that we have to be a certain way, but happiness just in the sense of if I let this go, then somewhere, somehow I'm gonna have a problem. But if I started dismantling it now, then I don't have to go through a lot more pain that comes with happening it later.
Jessie Cheng
You know what, Carver is oftentimes a really scary process because there's that letting go. Yeah. All right. So like, for example, like for someone with an eating a sweater, like they struggle with it for, you know, a really long time and say, I even imagining a life without an eating a sweater. So like, well, it's a really big change. It's a really big shift. And sometimes it's really, you know, easy to attach like your identity to like, help struggle. Yeah. Sorry, your mental health struggle, excuse me. But it doesn't have to be, you know, recovery has a lot of ups and downs. It's hard and it requires a lot of resilience, but you're right.
It's going to be better when we go through it. Having that support system like we talked about is so key during that recovery process.
Eric Chow
Do you have any tips for figuring out how to create that support system if you don't already happen to have one?
Jessie Cheng
I think being vulnerable is really important. Like, find those like one or two people that you can first open up to about your struggles. It's really key to your recovery because it makes you already feel so much less alone and a lot of people will be able to provide a lot of guidance for you. For example, like, let's say you're talking to someone who just doesn't understand. And this can happen a lot with like our family members, right? I admit, it takes a lot of patience on our parts. I think we can't expect for them to completely understand. But sometimes it's just saying like, hey, I just need you to listen to me.
That's all I just need. I need you to listen to me. You're open heart. I don't always need your advice. I just want you to listen to me so I can feel heard.
Eric Chow
Yeah, that's my two pieces of advice. No, that's yeah. And I think that in my experience and what I've heard, that becomes really hard to be vulnerable because we're afraid of rejection. And so when we say be vulnerable, it's great. And I think that sometimes you and me will think of the few people who we can be vulnerable with, and they're actually gonna help us, and they're actually gonna encourage us and believe in us. But some people, they've tried it so many times and they feel like they haven't found those people. And like you just said, that's part of the journey of being vulnerable. The beautiful part is if they don't support it or they're not encouraging of you, who cares?
Move on, right? You'll find somebody else out there who is going to actually care about you. And if this person doesn't, forget it. Move on, right? I think that that sometimes feels more difficult than it needs to be. It's difficult, don't get me wrong. It's difficult to take that rejection. But if we can kind of go into it with just, I'm trying to find somebody who's going to actually listen to me and care about me. That's it, period. If this person isn't, I'll move on to the next one.
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, like it's a challenge and, you know, not everyone understands like. the depths of one another person struggles. There's also oftentimes a lot of rejection. And I think that there are two kinds of people we tend to avoid. Either wicked people, like really bad people, like, oh, I don't want to associate myself with them, or people who are suffering. Because it's like, oh, what do I do now? They're suffering, right? So yeah, it's like, it is hard. when you get rejected, when you are vulnerable. But sometimes it's like, oh, this is kind of just how life is. So I need to keep like finding those people who I can't open up to.
Eric Chow
And damn it, there's 7 billion people out there. You'll find one. Can't be that bad. Really do hope. Yeah. I'm going to flip the script. What if somebody comes to you? and they have a problem and they're being vulnerable and it's mental health related or eating disorder related or anything remotely related to this. What can you do as the person they're coming to?
Jessie Cheng
Absolutely. First of all, when people come up to you, some people will seek your advice, but many people just want to be hurt. So I think like someone is first initially opening up to me about their struggles, all I do is just listen. You know 90% of time is just thumb talking but sometimes when I catch like what they will say and I know it's like a Negative thought I know it's an eating their sort of thought. I'll be like I'll challenge them with a question For example, I think some people will say like I feel like I have to exercise today because I can't believe I ate that I must be so fat.
It's like are you really fat just because You didn't exercise for one day It's like you know like is that is that a true thought? about yourself, right? Because our bodies don't change like like drastically just because we don't you know just because we miss the one single workout. So sometimes like when I talk with my friends, I will challenge their thoughts in a very gentle and patient way. But most of it is just listening to them. And I think like, but I do think that if it's a very serious issue and you can tell it, we do want to encourage help and we do want to encourage them to seek out a trusted adult or to bring it to their attention. their attention that they do need to do something actively different about their situation. Yeah.
Eric Chow
I think guys are notoriously the kind of people who want to solve problems. I think girls are more naturally listener oriented. And so that's something I've had to learn to like yo, shut up. and just listen, right? That's something that I've definitely had to learn. And not just, you know, I'm sure plenty of girls have that problem too, who think, you know, in the solution mindset, which is great. You should be. But like you said, sometimes people don't want that. They just need to listen. And even if you think you have an answer, if you listen for another 20 minutes, I guarantee you'll probably not have the answer.
Because it's usually deeper. Then once you get in the first couple minutes, right? Exactly. And yeah, listening just does everything. You don't need to say anything sometimes.
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, I think one important lesson I learned growing up is like, listen to listen, don't listen to your mind. Beautiful. Yeah. Just listening, listen. Listen, because you care. Yeah, listen, because you love that person. Yeah.
Eric Chow
And listen also because you want that other person to feel valued because I feel that's really what we're touching on. All of these disorders and mental health things is just somebody saying, yo, I don't feel valued. I don't see my worth. Even just in a very subconscious level by listening to them, you're like, yeah, you have worth clearly. I'm listening to you, duh. Even to that, a subconscious level, right?
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, I mean, it's a real struggle and people need to be.
Eric Chow
Yeah. Yeah. What else do you want to share?
Jessie Cheng
No, nothing else. I think my definitely gave me all opportunities to share like my thoughts. Just really grateful as opportunity again to be on your podcast. And I'm really excited to share and glamored with the rest of your listeners as well.
Eric Chow
Oh, I'm excited for this book. I'm looking forward to reading it, especially, especially after I was excited already and then this conversation, I'm even more excited now. One more thing. Yes. To end this off. I like to end my episode off with what is the most, I don't know about most important, but what is the one takeaway you want to stress one more time to the people listening to this podcast?
Jessie Cheng
Yeah, absolutely. seek opportunities to learn about other people's struggles and their experiences because it makes you a much more well-rounded and compassionate person. And I think you also use your story, use your voice to help advance diverse narratives because it will make everybody a better person.
Eric Chow
Just doing that alone has already, in my short years of life, brought me so much value. and so much personal joy as well. It's such a rewarding thing. And it actually brings me back to a thought I had earlier when it came to you saying, does it really matter if you exercise this one day? And I think that I've struggled with not just in exercising world, but just in general, a lot with this, I don't know, I think I put too much pressure, we put too much pressure sometimes on the short term thing. and not on the long term thing. Yeah. Like this one thing?
No, it does not matter. Yeah. If you mess up one day, it's okay. It's not that big of a deal because like you said, you're not going to be fat because you ate one cookie. You're not going to be fat because you didn't go to the gym one day. It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter. You're not going to fail your exam because you know, whatever. You're not going to get an F because you didn't do one assignment or you didn't understand one concept or so many little situations. And I think we put so much pressure on ourselves because we think this one thing matters and it doesn't really matter.
What really does matter is the long term. One cookie won't make you fat, but one cookie over a year, every day will. That's where you need to take care of this little thing, where it's not even about the habit itself. It's just about. dismantling the beliefs and the habits and the things that are underlying there. And when you take care of that, the problem is gone.
Jessie Cheng
Not having that like all or nothing mentality. Yeah. And also like, you know, sometimes when we, you know, don't do our best, whatever that personal standard is, it's like showing that self compassion, like, Hey, we're human beings and yeah, difficult and difficult. And we're not perfect. We're not made to be perfect. But also like, if our bodies do change that is also okay because it's also a very natural progress process. So yeah, just like learning how to be fully content with ourselves, yet striving for self growth because both can happen at the same time. You know, you don't have to self-love and always see like the negative parts about yourself in order to grow personally because I think I can actually be counterintuitive.
Eric Chow
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, now that's something I've had to work on quite a lot. I continue to have to work on. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, Jesse, great to have you on the show. Thank you for coming. I appreciate you sharing the story here and I look forward and answering the questions and I look forward to reading the book and sharing about the book. This is going to be fun. It's going to be exciting.
Jessie Cheng
Thank you so much, Erica, again, for having me.
Eric Chow
All right. Well, thank you guys so much for listening through to the end of episode number 50. I hope you enjoyed hearing that conversation that Jesse and I got to have found it very insightful and Maybe it expanded your perspective. Maybe it taught you something that you didn't know before maybe it gave you a greater awareness for the impact of mental health or the impact it can have on these seemingly perfect people who are in the public eye. Maybe it helps you generate some empathy for the people that you are around. One of the things I always like to remind myself is, listen, I ain't perfect.
I go through my own struggles and my own moments where I'm feeling down and it's simply looking at another person and saying, that person goes through things just like I do. Their circumstances may be different. Their life may be different, but there are moments where this person feels down. There are struggles that this person is going through that I don't even know about. Just like how other people don't know about some of my struggles. And I think putting that into perspective can really, really help. Guys, hope you enjoyed this episode. Unglamored comes out August 2021, which is just coming up in a few weeks here.
I've pre-ordered my copy. I'm so excited to receive it. I just got an email from Jesse a few days ago with the author's note, so I'm super excited. Her links are all in the episode description. And yeah, so anyway, hope you enjoy it. And I'll see you in episode number 52. Peace.